1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,000
Tonight, a face-to-face confrontation on unidentified flying objects.

2
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000
If they exist at all, do they come from outer space?

3
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:18,000
Or is belief in flying saucers simply a new form of religious faith?

4
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,000
If UFOs do come from outer space, as one of our debaters contends,

5
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,000
is the U.S. Air Force keeping the matter secret?

6
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,000
If so, why?

7
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:35,000
Or is this simply another example of mass self-deception based on flimsy or faulty evidence?

8
00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,000
On this program,

9
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:42,000
Major Donald E. Kehoe, author of Aliens from Space,

10
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:49,000
opposes Colonel William T. Coleman, former publicity chief of the U.S. Air Force.

11
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:57,000
From the Yorkville Studio Theater in downtown Toronto on the Great Debate,

12
00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:03,000
resolve that unidentified flying objects from outer space exist.

13
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,000
Your Chairman, D. E. Eberton.

14
00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:12,000
Well, almost everybody in this audience thinks that UFOs from outer space exist.

15
00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:18,000
The vote is 190 for the affirmative, to 32 for the negative.

16
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,000
And are they enough Major Kehoe that makes your job the harder one

17
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,000
because you have fewer minds to change?

18
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,000
And that is the purpose of a debate.

19
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,000
It might be hard for another reason.

20
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,000
All right. We'll give you four minutes.

21
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,000
We'll give your opponent six, so we'll give you two for a bottle,

22
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:39,000
and then we'll go on with the more informal aspects of our program.

23
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,000
So would you start the clock please for the affirmative and Major Donald Kehoe?

24
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:53,000
For over 15 years, my honorable opponent has known that UFOs are alien spaceships.

25
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,000
This is what Boss thought about.

26
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,000
He was piloting an Air Force bomber with two crewmen aboard,

27
00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:05,000
when a metallic circular craft came swiftly toward them.

28
00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,000
Now I will have to give Colonel Coleman credit.

29
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,000
Despite the possible danger, he went to full power and shot after it,

30
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:17,000
thinking he might get a closer look, but within a few seconds it was out of range.

31
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,000
Now this is something which should affect a man quite a bit,

32
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,000
and he's had such an experience, but it really backfired

33
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:31,000
because he was, sometime after that, appointed one of the leading UFO officers in Air Force headquarters.

34
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,000
That means he was assigned to explain away cases,

35
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,000
and some of them didn't require much because they were fakes anyway.

36
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:44,000
But back of this there was other evidence that he learned after he became a UFO officer.

37
00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,000
He learned about General Nathan Twining's evaluation.

38
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,000
Lieutenant General Nathan Twining was a great figure in World War II,

39
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,000
Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff later.

40
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,000
He was then head of the Air Materiel Command,

41
00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,000
and using almost 100 experts on this command, he evaluated.

42
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,000
It's a conclusion, the UFOs were real, they were not illusions.

43
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,000
The majority of reports described flying discs, apparently metallic.

44
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:16,000
They were flat on the bottom, domed on top, and they gave indications of intelligent control,

45
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:22,000
either direct or remote, by the way they tried to evade approaching aircraft.

46
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:28,000
Now this is of the approach, but he recommended another full-scale scientific evaluation,

47
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,000
and in the following year these scientists came up with a top secret conclusion.

48
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:37,000
It was called an Estimated Situation, that the UFOs generally reported,

49
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,000
and there were facts that they discarded those,

50
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,000
the genuine cases represented interplanetary spaceships.

51
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:50,000
The chairman of this group wanted the Chief of Staff to make it available to the public.

52
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:55,000
General Bannonberg, who was then Chief of Staff, said no, he was afraid it would cause trouble.

53
00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,000
And there was one more.

54
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,000
Major Dewey Fournier, monitor for the entire project with headquarters,

55
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:05,000
came out with a still bigger evaluation after the great flap of 52.

56
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,000
Same conclusions, interplanetary spaceships and the public should be told.

57
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,000
Now since then there have been many, many developments.

58
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:18,000
The situation has grown worse because over 50% of the people in the United States,

59
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:23,000
and I think in Canada, believe the UFOs are real,

60
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,000
and by implication they don't believe the official explanations.

61
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:31,000
What makes it more serious is that there have been a number of serious cases, double serious.

62
00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:36,000
Anyway, one of the worst cases that occurred over Buffalo, Texas,

63
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:42,000
when a ban of airliner, a Lockheed Electra, was passing over the town of Buffalo,

64
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,000
and people on the ground saw a sort of a ready show,

65
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,000
and shortly after that a flash of some kind.

66
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:52,000
There was a terrific light, and the airliner disintegrated with everyone on board.

67
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,000
The vice president of Banff, who investigated this along with the civil air night board,

68
00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,000
said it was the most horrible crash he'd ever investigated.

69
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,000
And he said, the force that caused this came from outside.

70
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,000
There was no bomb inside the airliner.

71
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:12,000
So what I have been concerned about is that a sudden evaluation would start a people

72
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,000
who firmly believed the Air Force was telling the truth.

73
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,000
If it all came out at one time about the secret developments and the many cases,

74
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:25,000
and some of them by top Air Force pilots who've been sort of ridiculed like other people,

75
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,000
it might have a very bad after effect.

76
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:32,000
And I think the public should be gradually prepared pressing the statement.

77
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,000
Thank you, Major Keel.

78
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,000
Willow.

79
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:45,000
In six minutes for Colonel Coleman and the negative.

80
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,000
Mr. Chairman, honorable opponent,

81
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:57,000
mystery of man's origin has intrigued him throughout recorded history.

82
00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:04,000
He has puzzled and theorized over the question of where, when, and how he began.

83
00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,000
But man, like a detective arriving at the scene of the crime,

84
00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,000
at the long, long period following the event,

85
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:17,000
there's so put to arrive at conclusions that would stand up in court.

86
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:23,000
The legal fascination in Wounded Today is the question of whether there is life on other worlds.

87
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:30,000
I support Dr. Sagan's theory that perhaps in our galaxy there are something on the order of

88
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:39,000
100,000 to a million planets in this galaxy that perhaps have some form of intelligent life.

89
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:48,000
Moreover, my colleague would have you believe that this intelligent life is in fact in existence

90
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:55,000
and that it has visited the Earth, and very recently, perhaps even now.

91
00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:01,000
The question we are exploring tonight, do they visit us or do they not?

92
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,000
Yes or no?

93
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:08,000
The general public seemed to demand a yes or no answer.

94
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,000
And that is the question I say cannot be answered, yes or no.

95
00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:18,000
In the first place, you can't say no because you can't prove a negative hypothesis.

96
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,000
And that leaves us with only the yes.

97
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:27,000
And it was precisely that attitude with which the United States Air Force approached Project Blue Book,

98
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:38,000
and for more, that is just the way we pursued our investigations, objectively, systematically, thoroughly, and carefully.

99
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,000
Yet with imagination, open minds.

100
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:49,000
During that 20 years, we found no evidence, not an iota, that would prove or tend to prove

101
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:56,000
that manned extraterrestrial vehicles under intelligent control were visiting the planet Earth.

102
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,000
None.

103
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:06,000
We found so far nothing to indicate any technology beyond our current state of the art of present-day knowledge.

104
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:15,000
The Earth Force was given the responsibility to investigate UFO sightings, and this mission was too foal.

105
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,000
And the honorable opponent knows exactly what that mission was.

106
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,000
Was the national security being threatened?

107
00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,000
Air defense.

108
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,000
National security threat.

109
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,000
Was our national security being threatened?

110
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,000
And the second reason?

111
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:39,000
Do whatever possible to preclude technological surprise, whether it be from this planet or some other.

112
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:44,000
Our purpose was not to determine whether life existed elsewhere in the universe,

113
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:53,000
and I might add, contrary to reports, the United States Air Force has never denied the existence of extraterrestrial intelligent life.

114
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,000
The question was not in our provenance.

115
00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:03,000
We have been, and I have been accused of being less than truthful with the public regarding UFO reports.

116
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:08,000
I can only tell you that the charge is totally denied by the Air Force and by me.

117
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:15,000
After the cessation of Project Buber, we were left with a residue of some 700 cases.

118
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:22,000
This residue, as long as there is one, leaves a problem, and that's what we're discussing tonight.

119
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:27,000
These few hundred cases included a number of puzzling sightings.

120
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:33,000
These are the ones that are once the strangest and the most credible.

121
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:39,000
It was easier, though, to identify high strangeness than high credibility.

122
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:46,000
UFO investigation is very fascinating. It's a fascinating, interesting subject.

123
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,000
The problem was often all too slippery.

124
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:56,000
For all the evidence we discovered and all that presented to us out of the thousands of cases,

125
00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:04,000
what we found was either originated here on this planet or was of natural origin outside the planet.

126
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:12,000
If we take present knowledge and present technology, we must conclude that we have not received extraterrestrial viet visitors,

127
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,000
at least in recent times.

128
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,000
There was no evidence to support the visitation theory.

129
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:25,000
If one was to believe he's being visited, then he has to do it strictly on faith.

130
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,000
Thank you.

131
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,000
Thank you, Colonel Coleman. Two minutes for a bottle. Start the clock for Major Keel.

132
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:38,000
I was as bad a steppie as you were, and maybe worse, because I went around hitting my pilot friends in Marine Corps.

133
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,000
That was before Admiral Farny, who was the head of Navy Guided Missiles,

134
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:48,000
showed me 200 or more reports by Navy Marine Corps pilots, carrier pilots, and carrier officers,

135
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:53,000
and some of them were close encounters, daylight, showing exactly what was described by pointing.

136
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,000
Incidentally, you did not mention the three evaluations.

137
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,000
I have one of them. The photos started on them with me. I'll show it to you later if you haven't seen it.

138
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:08,000
I also saw the 1948 top secret evaluation, and you mentioned that one when we met at Cape Kennedy,

139
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:14,000
but anyway, I've seen that in Fournier also, and here's the secret, and it's still being kept as an unfinished document.

140
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:20,000
So I don't know why you evade those particular documents, because those are the belt foundation.

141
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,000
Now, in 20 years, you say there's no evidence at all.

142
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:28,000
Well, perhaps when we get to a general exchange here, I can bring up some cases I would like to have you mention.

143
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:35,000
You say there were only 700 cases. Dr. Heineck stated there were over 3,000 when he left the Air Force.

144
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,000
They were completely unexplained. Nobody ever answered that either.

145
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,000
Now, there are quite a number of serious cases that do come to mind.

146
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:49,000
The F-89 interceptor, they chased an object out over Lake Superior, and with big, riped radar,

147
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:54,000
and they saw the plane and the UFO merged on the scope, and then they vanished.

148
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,000
There were about five different answers put out on that.

149
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:08,000
Dr. Cape Kennedy, when I asked you about that case, and you said the Air Force explanation was that it was a Canadian airline that got off course.

150
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:15,000
And I said, well, I have copies of many of your letters. In fact, a whole stack of them, and a resume and a photocopies.

151
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:21,000
And as a maternal, we looked into that, and the Canadian Airlines was denied completely. They were anywhere near it.

152
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,000
And then, shortly after that, you switched to the Royal Canadian Air Force.

153
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:32,000
We contacted the Chief of Staff of the Royal Canadian Air Force, and he denied there was anything to it at all, because we had nothing there.

154
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,000
Thank you, Major Kehoe. You'll get a chance later to argue with Colonel Coleman.

155
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:43,000
In fact, in a moment, you'll be doing just that in a face-to-face confrontation when we come back from our usual break. We'll see you in a moment.

156
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:52,000
Some background on our debaters. Major Donald E. Kehoe is a writer who has been writing about flying saucers for 25 years.

157
00:12:52,000 --> 00:13:03,000
He's made 400 appearances on television and radio, written five books on the subject, his latest is called Aliens from Space, the Real Story of Unidentified Flying Objects.

158
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:18,000
He was named National Director of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomenon some years ago, a position he held until 1970.

159
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,000
He still remains on the board of that institution.

160
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:30,000
Colonel William Coleman has just retired as Chief Public Information Officer of the United States Air Force, supposed to be held for five and a half years.

161
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:39,000
He's a former World War II combat pilot with 15 missions. He was recalled for the Korean War and the Air Force, and stayed in after that.

162
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:48,000
He's written two books on the use of animals in medical and space research. He writes science fiction stories. He just finished a screenplay. He's working on a novel.

163
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,000
I have a couple of questions for each of you, gentlemen.

164
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:56,000
You keep talking about top secret documents, Major Kehoe, but you apparently have them all.

165
00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:04,000
One of your briefcase and the rest of your head. How can they be top secret if you have these answers to them?

166
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:14,000
Well, there is a rule that when the 12-year period is over, documents have to be declassified unless a strong reason is presented that there was a danger of security.

167
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:24,000
A number of these things were released before then to me, but they were stamped declassified. I'm not naming anybody, but I have some very good friends in the Pentagon, including Air Force.

168
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:30,000
Well, how can you say that the U.S. Air Force is hiding something if they're declassifying the very documents to use as their hiding?

169
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:45,000
Well, the Freedom of Information Committee, aided by NICAP, the organization you mentioned, kept that there for about a year, and we finally got out, projects 1-12, which is an Air Force, a combination of documents, and all the sightings in there stamp either secret or confidential.

170
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:53,000
Well, of course, to release them, they had to stamp and declassify. For all those years, these things were being hidden. I knew some of them, but I couldn't use them.

171
00:14:53,000 --> 00:15:10,000
I have a question or two for you, Colonel Colon. You did not answer Major Keough's point that General Twining of the Chief of Staff himself, after a lengthy investigation, according to your opponent, said that unidentified flying objects were real.

172
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:21,000
Well, this was prior to Colonel Twining becoming Chief of Staff and later Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. This was when he was head of the Air Force Logistics Command in the project.

173
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:28,000
Since they handled the R&D or Research and Development Function, the Air Force, he headed that aspect up when he was a Lieutenant General.

174
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:39,000
Yes, this was in the beginning of the project, and our first concern, of course, was air defense. Therefore, there was classification early on in the program when it was Project Grudge.

175
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:46,000
But later, as we began to learn more, we began to look at a few thousand cases, things became declassified.

176
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,000
Well, now, did Twining say or did he not say?

177
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,000
Yes.

178
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,000
The thing is unidentified flying objects from outer space.

179
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,000
He said we must, we must be alert to that possibility.

180
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,000
He didn't say there were.

181
00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,000
No.

182
00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,000
He said we must be alert to that possibility.

183
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,000
That's right.

184
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,000
You said they were real.

185
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,000
I mean, he said they were real. I didn't say they were real.

186
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,000
Well, now, unidentified flying objects are very real.

187
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,000
Well, they're flying objects that are unidentified and remain so.

188
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:16,000
But he said, objects that were circular, metallic, and right on the bottom, domed on top, which is the typical explanation of project sign.

189
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,000
You remember there, there, what they came out with?

190
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:24,000
Well, Donald, that was 25 years ago now.

191
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,000
And yes, there were a lot of, and there were mistakes made.

192
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,000
We had the wrong people in the project.

193
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,000
Later on, we were finding.

194
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,000
You mean the wrong person?

195
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:32,000
No, no, no, wait a minute.

196
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,000
Let's put it in and put it in the time.

197
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:39,000
We hired Dr. Heineck later and brought him into the program as a consultant.

198
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,000
I personally called him and assigned him to certain cases.

199
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,000
Those that were high strangeness, high credibility, we thought.

200
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,000
These are the cases that we had Heineck work on.

201
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,000
We consulted with him.

202
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,000
Well, there's another point.

203
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,000
Now, as far as the 3,000 cases that he mentioned, there are still 700 some on.

204
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:02,000
3,000 perhaps in Heineck's mind, but that's not an official Air Force point of view.

205
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:09,000
In December of 69, when the Air Force said that he had quit everything, closed investigation, everything was done,

206
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,000
then there wasn't a single case that remained unexplained.

207
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:13,000
Now, that was released.

208
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,000
That's not true.

209
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,000
We never made such a statement.

210
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,000
It's all over there.

211
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:21,000
Well, I'll be glad to provide you copies of our official statement, which clearly show

212
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,000
that we have about 730 odd cases.

213
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:29,000
Well, I'll ask the case now that the Air Force wrote Vice President Humphrey when he was

214
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,000
Vice President and said, now the single unexplained case, same thing, to Senator Birch Bay.

215
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,000
And a lot of others got that kind of sweater.

216
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:41,000
Now, somebody in the Department of Legislative Liaison was asleep or something along there

217
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,000
because they're supposed to help Congress and give them the facts.

218
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,000
Colonel, I'm still trying to figure out one thing.

219
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,000
The major key was that you saw a metallic circular spacecraft.

220
00:17:52,000 --> 00:18:01,000
Yes, I was flying in a metro bomber from South Florida to a base in Mississippi about 2 o'clock

221
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,000
on a cloudless Sunday afternoon around 2 o'clock.

222
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:09,000
I spotted a strange object at what I would guess to be around 20,000 feet

223
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,000
and some several miles in front of me to the right.

224
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,000
I punched my copal and I said, do you see what I see?

225
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000
And he said, yes, I believe it's a reflection on our windscreen.

226
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,000
I said, I don't think so.

227
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,000
Start making a turn to the left.

228
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,000
Give me about one needle wet.

229
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:31,000
And of course the object moved and I said, well, it's for real and we're gaining on it.

230
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,000
That was strange because we were to lower altitude and a slower machine.

231
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:41,000
And then the object began to descend in front of us and so I decided then to give chase.

232
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:47,000
I did go up to maximum military continuous power and then we started down.

233
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:53,000
I was cruising at that time at about 10,000 feet and we did get very close to it

234
00:18:53,000 --> 00:19:00,000
and the sighting lasted for several minutes, not a few seconds, and we did gain on it.

235
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,000
It just didn't change your mind regarding the...

236
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,000
No, I saw an object that I could not identify.

237
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,000
I was not then in research and development.

238
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,000
It could have been a test vehicle out of England.

239
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,000
I doubt it, based upon knowledge that I could...

240
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:14,000
Are you any idea what it was?

241
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,000
Have no idea.

242
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,000
And it disappeared on me and I had several good observers.

243
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,000
I had a representative of Lockheed Aircraft on board and a representative of the Allison

244
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:30,000
Division of General Motors, plus my own co-pilot who was a flight engineer

245
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,000
and of course my own enlisted flight engineer.

246
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,000
We had no cameras unfortunately.

247
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:41,000
Incidentally, the camera is the best tool to pursue this subject, Gretel.

248
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,000
Unless you get some of these people that get on the ground and hang something up on a wire

249
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:46,000
and take a shot of it.

250
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,000
Well, we have about four rooms full of photographs, like that,

251
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,000
and we have computers, landshifts and all that.

252
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,000
We can spot them almost in me.

253
00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,000
All right, but if the camera is the best evidence, what photographic evidence if any is there

254
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,000
that there are objects found in space?

255
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:07,000
Let's say that's just one aspect of evidence, Mr. Burton.

256
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:13,000
The camera is a good tool because it's so readily available to everyone.

257
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,000
But are there...

258
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:22,000
Let me ask you if the Air Force examined photographs of so-called flying saucers in other space.

259
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:27,000
We have two exposures of one unidentified flying object.

260
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,000
We know it's a large object.

261
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:37,000
It is dense, that is, it has mass, but we are not able to identify it under any known technology.

262
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:43,000
But that doesn't mean that it came from Bernard Starr or Alpha Centauri.

263
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,000
What do you have an unidentified object?

264
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,000
I don't know whether you're referring to the Mendel case,

265
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:54,000
but that was one where an object was said to have a man, a farmer and his wife named Trent.

266
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:55,000
This was the Mendel case.

267
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,000
That was what you were talking about?

268
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,000
Yes.

269
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,000
Well, all right, they kept quiet about for a while.

270
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:05,000
They got pictures of it, and it shows this typical UFO thing with a sort of a dome on the top.

271
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,000
And when I first saw it, I thought it was one of those funny rigged things.

272
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,000
And later on, several people I knew, including a man in a life magazine and others who went out there,

273
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,000
said, I don't know, I'd maybe something to it.

274
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:20,000
Well, that is one of the cases that was given to the Colorado University study.

275
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:27,000
Now, for those of you who don't know, the Air Force paid $523,000 to the University of Colorado for...

276
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,000
$550,000.

277
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,000
Well, they jumped it up.

278
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,000
Well, maybe they got that without being on the record because they copied the contract I got.

279
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,000
Let's not argue about a mere $5,000.

280
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,000
Okay.

281
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,000
Well, anyway, this was...

282
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,000
This thing came in, and there's a scientist there who is an expert photographer.

283
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,000
He went up there and spent about two weeks or more, and checking at all the angles.

284
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,000
And you read this report, it's about nine pages in the convent document.

285
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,000
And he ends up and said, for all intents and purposes, they saw exactly what they said.

286
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,000
He said, everything measures.

287
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,000
He said, the photograph of the Mexican analysis and all that was perfect.

288
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,000
So that's what it was in.

289
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:13,000
Now, Condon rushed that thing through because it was Nixon's coming up, and they thought he was going to be elected.

290
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:20,000
And he and Nixon were like that ever since that fight over his being a full communist.

291
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,000
So they hurried the thing through so that in case he was elected, that he wouldn't be coming in stopping it.

292
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,000
Well, I don't wish to participate in it.

293
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,000
Well, wait a minute.

294
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,000
I look, wait a minute.

295
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,000
Let me go.

296
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,000
Well, I'm sorry.

297
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,000
The fact that he's dead, Hitler's dead too, but I couldn't detest him less.

298
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:42,000
So I'm going to go this way on this photograph in the first two sections, which are all that Condon wrote.

299
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,000
I've been told by people who are on the project.

300
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:50,000
It says in there that this picture is bought forward, but it was too fuzzy and begged for photogrammetric analysis.

301
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,000
And here's his own specialist out there telling exactly what he does.

302
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,000
It was Pacific and Sean.

303
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,000
I think we'll get off the picture.

304
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,000
I've also seen pictures of the Sasquatches and sea serpents.

305
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:08,000
And what you're seeing, Major Keough, is that there are, my right, there's only one picture available that anybody agrees on.

306
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,000
No, there's one other, but it's kind of vague.

307
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,000
And that's a gun camera.

308
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,000
And therefore it's a gun camera.

309
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:18,000
But you clearly don't face your belief in this on photographs.

310
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,000
No, no, no, no, no, only on evidence by reliable people.

311
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,000
It was double checked.

312
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,000
And there's usually some physical proof.

313
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,000
Let me say a word just about evidence.

314
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:42,000
Any good prosecuting attorney will tell you that the best evidence in the world is circumstantial evidence, provided that the chain of evidence is unbroken.

315
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:52,000
And throughout all of your reports, Mr. Keough, I find circumstantial evidence and big, wide gaps in it.

316
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,000
You have no evidence.

317
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,000
The Congress asked you to submit your evidence.

318
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,000
You have nothing to submit.

319
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,000
So it has to be done on the basis of faith.

320
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,000
I sent that to the McCormick.

321
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,000
He was there and he looked at it and he said that he thought that it was very serious and strong.

322
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,000
And he passed it on and got the special project started.

323
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:18,000
But then the top man in that committee died and it killed it all.

324
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,000
We did something.

325
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,000
Now, people are always passing away just like you and I will someday.

326
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,000
I want to bring up something.

327
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,000
You said circumstantial evidence.

328
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,000
I will tell you this.

329
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:37,000
There have been more people convicted of murder except lately when nobody gets convicted of anything.

330
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:42,000
Because of evidence, that wasn't as strong as some of these UFO cases.

331
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,000
Now, I'll ask you about this one.

332
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,000
Colonel Donald J. M. Blake Slay.

333
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,000
He was the number one Air Corps Agent World War II.

334
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,000
He was also a wing commander.

335
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:58,000
He was over in Japan and he was making a routine flight and he got a call from the ground radar.

336
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:04,000
And they said two, the pilots of two other Air Force planes had radioed in and said there was strange object.

337
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:11,000
So he climbed up, came on through the clouds and here was this thing which had rotating beams of light.

338
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,000
And so he tried to go near it and it pulled away.

339
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:20,000
And he started down again and they called him and said it was back.

340
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:25,000
And when he went through that time, he caught off his lights and closed down full power.

341
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,000
And the thing disappeared in about three seconds.

342
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:34,000
Now this was an official Air Force report that was declassified out of the right path sent by Rupel.

343
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:41,000
It was declassified again in Air Force intelligence and I was given a detailed report of the whole thing.

344
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,000
Are you familiar with this Colonel Cohen?

345
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,000
Just vaguely.

346
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,000
My only comment here that you mentioned pilots.

347
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,000
Incidentally you credited me with 15 combat missions. I had 155.

348
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,000
I'm sorry, yes.

349
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,000
I've seen many strange things.

350
00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:02,000
I wouldn't want them to change my records.

351
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,000
And I wouldn't want them to have to go back and make all those up.

352
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:13,000
Pilots are not experts on astronomical or meteorological phenomena.

353
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,000
I don't care how qualified they are.

354
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,000
I've got 30-some odd college credit hours and meteorology.

355
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,000
I am not an expert on meteorological phenomena.

356
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,000
I know a lot about it.

357
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,000
But I haven't seen everything yet.

358
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,000
Same way with astronomy.

359
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,000
I've been an amateur astronomer.

360
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,000
I've been looking through the glass ever since I was a small child.

361
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,000
And yet I have not seen all there is to see.

362
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,000
This was the astronomical world.

363
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,000
There's one question I think we've got here before we go to our audience, Colonel Cohen.

364
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,000
Major Keough specifically accused the U.S. Air Force of a cover-up,

365
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,000
which if it were revealed would be a greater cover-up than a Watergate cover-up,

366
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,000
a cover-up of enormous proportions.

367
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,000
And I think...

368
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,000
Well, I'd like to hear much more about it.

369
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,000
I give him names and evidence there if you want it.

370
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,000
I mean Air Force people have said it.

371
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,000
We would appreciate the evidence.

372
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,000
We've been asking you for it for years, but all we get is the sighting reports.

373
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,000
We want evidence that we can get.

374
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,000
Let me answer the question.

375
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,000
Let me answer the cover-up.

376
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,000
All right.

377
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,000
There is no cover-up.

378
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,000
All of the material is declassified.

379
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:23,000
It's open to any serious researcher or reporter that cares to go to the Air Force Archives.

380
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:28,000
We've been isolated blue-boned so that we have ready access to it,

381
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,000
even though it's located in a Class B vault.

382
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,000
Now, the vault has to be a building.

383
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,000
We have to house it somewhere.

384
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,000
But the serious researcher can go in there and spend months reading all the reports

385
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,000
and let him make his own conclusions.

386
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,000
I was the guy that opened up blue-boned files to reporters, invited them down there.

387
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:52,000
I even extended the invitation to you to go out to blue-book and help yourself.

388
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,000
There is nothing to testify.

389
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,000
Now, they said I couldn't go.

390
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,000
That's not true.

391
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,000
If you're assistant to the Secretary, I've got his letter.

392
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,000
I spoke to the Secretary because I was the security review authority for the Air Force.

393
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,000
I'll show you that.

394
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,000
And I had the authority to grant you in.

395
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,000
I would not grant you in.

396
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,000
It didn't get to you.

397
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,000
You've never been in there?

398
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,000
I haven't been on a right path in the UFOs.

399
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,000
He says you can go in.

400
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,000
There's one thing that's...

401
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,000
Go stand with Max.

402
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,000
Mr. Barton, there's one thing that he did not answer.

403
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,000
I'd like to finish that.

404
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,000
I do want to finish one at a point.

405
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,000
I'd like to finish this to break, please.

406
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,000
Let me finish this.

407
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,000
You didn't finish the whole thing.

408
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,000
I wanted to tell you what we do cover up.

409
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,000
We've just got one minute and then we're going to go to our audience.

410
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,000
One minute for you.

411
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,000
You're making a finish in seven.

412
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:38,000
I'm going to give you...

413
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,000
I've got a man.

414
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,000
This will take less than that.

415
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,000
Good.

416
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,000
Now, we've developed certain aircraft which we had to keep under cover.

417
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,000
Now, I'll give you a very recent example.

418
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,000
The A11 SR-71 that our corp has developed totally in secrecy.

419
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,000
Yes, it flew and it was spotted by people.

420
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,000
We knew who they were that saw it because they reported it.

421
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,000
We immediately debriefed them and had them sign a little paper.

422
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,000
Saying it's not a point, sir.

423
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,000
And that was for a good reason because we jumped out technologically wise.

424
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,000
They go ahead and sell it.

425
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,000
All right, you get your 10 seconds.

426
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,000
All right.

427
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,000
Or even a minute.

428
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,000
You're going to be fair.

429
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,000
You innovated that Commander Colonel Bletchley, who had all that backing, was the number one

430
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,000
World War II ace was not competent.

431
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:23,000
The official answer to his sighting when I made it public was that he was looking at the

432
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,000
planet Jupiter.

433
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:29,000
Now, that night the planet Jupiter, and I checked this with the government, was 366 million

434
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,000
miles from the Earth.

435
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:35,000
The radar that was reporting this object had a range of less than 500 miles.

436
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:40,000
Bletchley, this top ace, a great man, and terrific, was really cool.

437
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,000
And he got so annoyed at it, that he said some things about the people in the Air Force

438
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,000
that I don't think you care to hear.

439
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,000
I don't think you were talking about you, because you weren't up there.

440
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,000
We will not repeat them in this program.

441
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:54,000
I'm trying, trying to get our audience into the show because there's a lot of people out

442
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,000
there who want to ask questions.

443
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,000
And we're going to give them a chance to do that in a moment.

444
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,000
We'll take a break and then be back with the great debates.

445
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,000
Okay, gentlemen down in the corner here.

446
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:02,000
Would you stand up, sir, yes?

447
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,000
Yes.

448
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:13,000
The main thing that people said they saw crashed, has there ever been an object left over that

449
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,000
anybody has to see or to study?

450
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:25,000
Well, there was something at Crownsville, Maryland in 1957, which was supposed to fall

451
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:30,000
into the state hospital grounds after an object was seen to explode nearby.

452
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:36,000
Army intelligence came in and cleared off the area and they got this object and put

453
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,000
it into a sometimes kind of container and kept taking Geiger counter checks on it.

454
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,000
And this was sent out to right-past Air Force Base.

455
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,000
First they denied the head, then they said that when they opened the container the thing

456
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,000
had to be wrapped with.

457
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,000
It was not even just that.

458
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,000
That was, in one case it was proof that it had been something, but it didn't turn out to be

459
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,000
any help.

460
00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:01,000
Then there's a story about the crashed UFOs way down in the southwest and the small

461
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,000
beings that were deep frozen.

462
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,000
If I was actually concerned you can write that off.

463
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,000
I investigated that for two magazine years and years ago.

464
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,000
The two men who were putting it out were really trying to make some dough.

465
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,000
There may have been something, some such thing happened, but I never found any evidence of

466
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,000
it.

467
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,000
Hey, Colin, Colonel Colman, to the first part.

468
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:24,000
The other thing I knew in Maryland, and that we got the evidence, was a Nike that had been

469
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,000
launched from a local site.

470
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:31,000
And I can understand perhaps the United States Army wanted to keep that one quiet because

471
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:37,000
they started launching rockets near the city of Washington, D.C. and you can get people

472
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,000
excited.

473
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:44,000
That wasn't any Nike besides the cheap intelligence out there of the civilian.

474
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,000
And we really knew him or not.

475
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,000
Anyway, he told me and he would check into it and he did and he called back and said,

476
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,000
yes, it was here, but it was back there.

477
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,000
The gentleman behind you, you'd stand up.

478
00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,000
Major Kehoe, it only took NASA, I believe, three flights to land on the moon.

479
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,000
I was wondering with all these hundreds of flights of UFOs why they haven't landed and

480
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,000
started playing golf here or something along those lines.

481
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:15,000
Because of my honorable opponent's objection to facts and evidence here, I'm going to say

482
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,000
merely that this was a report.

483
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:23,000
There was a report that once landed out in Ohio and left a sports circle on the ground.

484
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:28,000
Over in Australia, a senior pilot on the airline and some people, other people said the same

485
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:33,000
thing and there had been dozens and dozens of those reports.

486
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,000
I know that there are cases that go through to the airport and through to the outlet so

487
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,000
they had no answer for it.

488
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:44,000
Well, apparently one of these things touched down or was about to touch down and death came

489
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,000
in.

490
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,000
There were a lot of people coming in scrambles or anything like that.

491
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,000
And they got off.

492
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:56,000
But there was only one that you might consider seriously down in Argentina.

493
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:01,000
A UFO was reported to have landed near a ranch house.

494
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,000
And one of the members of the family reported that this figure that came out looked like

495
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:12,000
a robot and then discovered that she had seen him, I got back in off of it.

496
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,000
Well, ordinarily you'd saw that out the window.

497
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:20,000
But the Argentine government, you're a long investigation and officially accept this truth.

498
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,000
Colonel Coleman, are you coming?

499
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,000
Well, I'm not sure.

500
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,000
Is this Argentina or Brazil?

501
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,000
Argentina.

502
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,000
Argentina.

503
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,000
I'm not acquainted with that particular...

504
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,000
I was never on Brazil too, but that's only in detail.

505
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:35,000
We analyzed, we had evidence from Brazil and that checked out to be a very high grade of

506
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,000
man-made magnesium.

507
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,000
Magnes.

508
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,000
I know that case.

509
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,000
Gentlemen of the checkered jacket, would you stand up, sir?

510
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,000
Yes, Colonel Coleman.

511
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,000
Yes, sir.

512
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,000
You mentioned photographic evidence.

513
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,000
We had photographs taken of a UFO in the Rocky Mountains.

514
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,000
There's one taken by a French military pilot over France.

515
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,000
Power up.

516
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,000
The official photographs released by the President of Brazil.

517
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,000
And you say you've chased a UFO.

518
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,000
Is there a UFO?

519
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,000
You don't even know what a UFO is.

520
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,000
Certainly there are unidentified flying objects.

521
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,000
Thank you.

522
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,000
And that's exactly what they are, unidentified.

523
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,000
But that doesn't mean they come from Bernard Starr, Alpha Centauri.

524
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,000
You see, you've got to look at it this way.

525
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:19,000
How long would it take, for instance, if they're coming from Andromeda?

526
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,000
Even with the time dilation theory.

527
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,000
A round trip from here to Andromeda and back is still going to take, if you can travel

528
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:32,000
at warp velocities, it's going to take 3,000 Earth years or longer.

529
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:37,000
Ship time will be much less than that if you believe in the time dilation theory.

530
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,000
So it's okay for them.

531
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,000
I'm just interested in down here in Earth.

532
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,000
Let me point out the debate is that they come from outer space.

533
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,000
Note that there are not a lot of things flying up in the air we can't identify.

534
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,000
There are walks and there are walk-ups and there's...

535
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,000
We hear as they're everything else.

536
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,000
The argument is about where they come from.

537
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,000
Question over here, gentlemen.

538
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,000
Magic here.

539
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,000
You forward in your evidence to photographs only.

540
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,000
We heard from the audience here there have been several more.

541
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,000
It's also possible to photograph a mirage.

542
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:15,000
Would it not be a reasonable conjecture to say, as all the things that you've mentioned,

543
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:21,000
the spherical shapes or the disc shape with the dome and the press releases have always been the same,

544
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:26,000
and people coming off are a robot type or similar to ourselves.

545
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:33,000
When, for instance, if you go out to the warmer planets, we as carbonaceous-paced people could not exist,

546
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,000
but a cynic and man could, he need not look like we do.

547
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:42,000
So it would not be unreasonable to expect that these photographs are, in fact, mirages.

548
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,000
Well, I didn't say there weren't more photographs.

549
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:53,000
There was some up at the Northwest, and there was a big argument about there was supposed to be reflections off of a two-gest wing.

550
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,000
The two wing over there, and then that was thrown out and back and forth.

551
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:01,000
But the question about the types of beings, that's one of the big points.

552
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,000
If the thing is that serious, we all don't know what kind of beings are involved,

553
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:12,000
in case they do lie on here, whether if they're humanoid, but might not be so hard to take them.

554
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,000
And if they weren't, it could be very frightening.

555
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:19,000
Like the pictures of the beings that, by the name of Barney Hill, of course, to see,

556
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,000
I don't know whether you know about that, but they're very...

557
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,000
Well, the question was, could these pictures not be pictures of mirages?

558
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,000
You have seen mirages in the air.

559
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:32,000
Well, I've seen mirages, yes, between one ground and sea, and when the air to...

560
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,000
That was the best.

561
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,000
Other than that kind, I didn't understand it then, I definitely was asking.

562
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:41,000
Well, let me ask a word about mirages. There are two types, superior and inferior.

563
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:49,000
The inferior mirages are when you see a lake, and the superior mirages are like when you see a whole building floating up in the air.

564
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:54,000
We have outstanding photographs, particularly out of superior mirages, that are quite misleading.

565
00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:00,000
And if you really want to see some mirages, get up to the northern circle, and it'll scare the daylights out of you.

566
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,000
Gentlemen up here, in the...

567
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,000
Colonel X, what, would you stand up please, sir?

568
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,000
That's fine.

569
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:12,000
If you don't believe that these are UFOs from outer space, where do you believe they come from?

570
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,000
What is your theory about it?

571
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,000
You're addressing the question.

572
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:22,000
If I don't believe that they are, in fact, from outer space, where do you believe they are from?

573
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,000
Well, if you don't believe they are from outer space, where do they come from?

574
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,000
And your belief?

575
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,000
Okay, fly, unidentified flying objects, let's go back again.

576
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,000
It's an object that's flying that remains unidentified.

577
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,000
There are so many different answers.

578
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:47,000
Mirages, astronomical phenomena, meteorological phenomena, decayed satellites, meteorites, bolides, fireballs, sun-dogs, dust-devils.

579
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,000
And you could go on and on, there are so many other possibilities.

580
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,000
I'm not saying that they don't exist, as I said in the beginning.

581
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,000
You cannot prove a negative proposition.

582
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,000
So what is your private theory?

583
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:05,000
My private theory is that I would hope there is extraterrestrial life.

584
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:10,000
I would hate to have the responsibility for this whole universe.

585
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,000
And I would hope you would share that with me.

586
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,000
But we have no evidence.

587
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,000
None, not an iota.

588
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,000
What would you...

589
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,000
I would have to do it on the basis of faith.

590
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:27,000
And if I found a deeper religious man, and I prefer to follow my faith, and a living God.

591
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,000
What would you like to see as evidence?

592
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,000
If you say, okay, now if this event happened, now I would be...

593
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,000
That's another question.

594
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,000
What would satisfy, say, the scientific community?

595
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,000
And that's where this investigation really ought to be.

596
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,000
Right, well, I'm going to allow you to put that out as part of your summing up,

597
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,000
because we must go to the summing up in order that the audience can vote.

598
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,000
We'll do that in a moment, first, these messages.

599
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:58,000
E.J. Martin-Bader is exactly 45 seconds to sum up his points, and we start with Major Kehoe, 45.

600
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:04,000
You did not mention the Jan. 146 secrecy order, which was fed out by the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

601
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:11,000
And this specifically invokes the espionage law with penalties of up to five years in prison and $10,000 fine,

602
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:18,000
or both, for revealing a UFO report that is sent over the CIRVIS transmission system.

603
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:23,000
I have a photocopy of it, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff agrees that is correct.

604
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,000
The AIAA, which is the largest aerospace organization in the world,

605
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:32,000
making the Institute of Aesthetics and Aeronautics, has rejected the Connors report.

606
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:40,000
They reject the Air Force report, and they call for a new, full, unbiased investigation free of military control.

607
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:45,000
Now, if all of the thousands of witnesses, do we have policy, and that is a wrong God's sake?

608
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,000
Thank you, Mary. I want to know.

609
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,000
Okay, I'll send you a...

610
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,000
25 seconds for Colonel Coleman.

611
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,000
The Jan. App document is based upon the United States Code.

612
00:39:54,000 --> 00:40:00,000
This is a document that says, all pilots, ship captains, and others in official status

613
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:07,000
will report any unidentified object, whether it's on the land, on or under the sea, or in the air.

614
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,000
And that is a law that's been on the books a long, long time and was here before the flying saucer came.

615
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,000
My sum up is this.

616
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,000
Present your evidence.

617
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,000
There is none.

618
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,000
Photographs will not do alone.

619
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,000
We must have evidence.

620
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,000
Otherwise, you're going to have to accept this proposition on faith and faith alone.

621
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,000
I don't have faith.

622
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:26,000
Thank you, gentlemen.

623
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,000
We're now going to let the audience vote.

624
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:34,000
At the beginning of the program, 190 people were on Major Keo's side on the affirmative,

625
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,000
and 32 were for the negative.

626
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,000
30 people have moved over to the negative.

627
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,000
So it is now 160 to 62 rather than 190 to 32.

628
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,000
So we award the debate to Colonel Coleman.

629
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,000
Congratulations, Colonel.

630
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,000
Thank you.

631
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:53,000
Thank you.

632
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,000
Thank you.

633
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,000
Thank you.

634
00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:59,000
Time to go.

635
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,000
We'll be back once again next week when we'll stage the great debate.

636
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,000
I hope you'll be watching.

637
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:04,000
See you then.

638
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:21,000
Tonight's subject was resolved that unidentified flying objects from outer space exist.

639
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,000
Our debaters were Major Donald Kehoe for the affirmative and Colonel William Coleman for

640
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,000
the negative.

641
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,000
I'm Bernard Cowan.